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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 18, 2010 4:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

Uh...you did read it, right? How's this sound:

"I don’t believe in a supernatural being."

Did yu catch all the stuff about "I was born and raised...it's cultural...you can't get away from it"?

And, all the "DNA...higher consci-biz"?

I think that it nicely sums up my take on him.

That is NOT traditional, catholic upbringing speaking now (then). He talks exactly like my mom...

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 18, 2010 8:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

Again, I'm taking away more uncertainly and sense some difficulty in definitions of terms.

While he does say "I don’t believe in a supernatural being" he also says he has no idea if God "exists out beyond space-time beyond our experience, or around it" etc.

In any case, I don't think that pondering God is petty. But it seems you have to be willing to go beyond the sorts of logic that limited Kant and Wittgenstein (at least as understood from the lower rungs of the ladder).



Jerry: I’ve been spoken to by a higher order of intelligence – I thought it was God. It was a very personal God in that it had exactly the same sense of humor that I have. (laughter) I interpret that as being the next level of consciousness, but maybe there’s a hierarchical set of consciousnesses. My experience is that there is one smarter than me, that can talk to me, and there’s also the biological one that I spoke about."

"I don’t know whether it cares to express itself that way or even if matters such as developmental constructs along time have any relevance to this particular God point of view. It may be a steady-state God that exists out beyond space-time beyond our experience, or around it, or contemporary with it, or it may function in the moment – I have no idea."

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 18, 2010 8:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

Oh, yeah--me too. Perhaps I was unclear, but my point all along was that he is way too wishy washy to be categorized as "religious" in the sense of practicing anything along the lines of catholicism, etc., but is "spiritual" in precisely the new age whackyness fashion so eloquently described in the interview above...

I was aware of the interview, from yrs ago, and thus knew he said things like this, but must not have conveyed it in my posts adequately.

So, if you take the quotes you just quoted as "religious" and thus showing how "spirituality" thus equals "religious", you are absolutely right! We agree.

However, I was raised more catholic than Jerry (my father was with the Jesuits, almost ordained...we dined with many of them at the Berkeley retreat over the years so trust me, this I know well), and NO practicing catholic or other traditional religious sort would be caught dead saying any of this bizarre stuff...

That's all I ever tried to articulate--Jerry was whacky spiritual, BUT not religious (unless "whacky spiritual" = "religious" in your book).

Wheww! We coulda solved this in 60 sec face to face! But seriously, do you really think these two terms are concordant? Jesuits have absolutely no tolerance for the new agers in the SF area--they are considered dangerous...

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 18, 2010 9:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

I'm not Jesuit, but they seem to not be single-mindedly right wing. The series Classics of Western Spirituality from Paulist Press is seriously heady stuff on Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

I think it's only sensible to question the authority of possession by disembodied entities as seen in many New Age tracts.

One thing I wouldn't mess with, I'm weak, is magic. I steered away from Jerry's collaboration with Nicky Scully's The Cauldron. There doesn't seem to be unbroken chains of transmission, but I haven't tried beyond reading some odd books. I prefer the relative safety of tradition, which is grounded in pre-empire periods of the religions.

Here's some flavor of Nicky Scully and her hippie syncretism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khTZqGb_gp0


This post was modified by spacedface on 2010-01-19 05:21:08

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Poster: buscameby Date: Jan 19, 2010 11:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

As a long time"SEEKER", I have studied almost all exoteric and esoteric traditions.

I still believe in THE SPIRIT" that connects us all but have "lost " my faith in "Religions, Teachers and what ever external source to find my place in the Universe.

I have faith that you can find your own connection and have your own relationship to the ALL, which we can never be separated from and will return when this experiment or what ever term makes you happy that we call LIFE.

I know that I made a special connection with the music and the musicians who play the GD.(not a miss print)

I found solace and peace in their mitts. It was a place of Sanctuary from the HELL Realms that envelope the human existence.

I do not regret studying with the so called Masters I have been blessed to meet but I doubt I will ever call on another one to TEACH me, they may be smarter or have more understanding of their own paths but only my own HIGHER SELF can teach me what I need to learn.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 19, 2010 1:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

Hey Bus--always a pleasure conversing with you, and though I know we have different perspectives on these matters, I do appreciate your dismay/unhappiness with various "teachers/leaders/organizations", to paraphrase.

My mom was one that had very negative experiences with "organized religion" and by the 60s was just waiting to be "exploited" by any number of new age whackos that came and went like me and my uncles from night to night from the late 60s thru the 70s (jeezzz, I guess it continues today)...she was way too innocent, and naive, but very well intentioned (as I mentioned, "spiritual" but not "religious" in the sense of organized forms; "christian" in behavior...).

In any event, she was really taken advantage of over the years by such individuals and groups representing themselves as teachers/gurus, and the $$ they extracted wasn't as much an issue to anger me as the emotional harm they did her...Rob mentioned to me that the new agers are not so innocent, and though they don't seem to have the destructive track record of so many of the traditional religions, I saw first hand what they can do; and of course, this informs my distaste for them, which I see reflected in you.

I have no problem whatsoever with someone pursuing such matters as you have on your own; just wanted you to know I appreciated your perspective...and wish you well in your searching.

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Poster: buscameby Date: Jan 19, 2010 3:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

I can understand to intimately with what your mom went through.

I don;t hold the "teachers " responsible either and I actually have the same sympathy for the "new agers".

The traditions I have practice or studied have brought MUCH to who I am now, BUT I have seen many of them fall to human frailties and been disillusioned too.

My hardest test has just recently occurred and will take time to decipher but I wouldn't trade the experiences of the twenty some years I spent on that path.

It has cost me a lot of time and money and when the I get things back on track with my career I won't be as sensitive I hope to the whole experience.
I went into it fully aware that what I am experiencing could happen.

But like I said when I set out on this path after my BUS incident, both the real one and the "Cryptical Experience" I know that this life is a MYSTERY and needs to lived to be fulfilled.

I would also like to acknowledge our exchanges and deeply appreciate your understanding of the views I express here. I have few places I can share these disparate ideas without total reproach. I believe our experience with psychedelic wanderings allow us a unique insight into "mystical" preponderance's(if that's a word-lol).

LVX

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 18, 2010 8:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

"NO practicing catholic or other traditional religious sort would be caught dead saying any of this bizarre stuff..."

Well in the not so distant past if you were caught, you would be dead!

But don't you think that Meister Eckhart, Emanuel Swedenborg, Hildegard of Bingen, and less wild Christians (St Theresa, St John of the Cross), Sufis, Hindus, Taoists, etc have similar ideas?

And when you see that it seems clear that the scriptures and many traditional interpretations are also open, more so than the culture that is now leading humanity to hopelessness and possible mass extinction?

But maybe you are right -- the problem of the counterculture was that it was that it thought it could make a new civilization in a short time. I am grateful for wheat bread and organic food, but drugs and free sex is tricky. Traditional spirituality, while full of similar ideas about the nature of reality, definitely discouraged indulgences and urges that fed desire and fear.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 19, 2010 6:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

Absolutely! As in: "Traditional spirituality, while full of similar ideas about the nature of reality, definitely discouraged indulgences and urges that fed desire and fear."

Good chatting with you, SF...I know we apparently bored everybody else around here, but I thoroughly enjoyed it, and frankly, learned that as usual, I am always having to control my urges to categorize things as black or white (the tendency of my overly analytical and anal retentive mind) and accept the shades of grey...

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 19, 2010 6:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

Oh well a touch of grey, kind of suits you anyway...

No, I'm not pitching in. Although I could. Resist! Resist!!


Well ok, here's a little spice for the pot:
There is no such thing as a benign religion.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Jan 19, 2010 6:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

I knew I should not have put my faith in your ability to hold your tongue.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 19, 2010 6:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

So, a question of faith is it? As doubtless you know, faith does not require proof, nor proof require faith, yet here is proof that your faith was misplaced. I'm just not to be trusted with a keyboard. But really it's more of a tease than a rafter-rattling bass bomb into an epic Other One. So to speak.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Jan 19, 2010 7:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

Well I also had faith that you understood that when it comes to religion there is no such thing as a tease (although I recall that Billy Joel once had a different take on that). I think I now need to restore my faith in faith.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 19, 2010 9:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

Having put your faith in me, I feel compelled to do anything to avoid letting you down...but, I fear I shall.

Although this qualifies as a Facebook moment, I have only been able to determine that Wangari Maathai is indeed an interesting sort, and along with RCarson and the primatologists, the only ones that come to mind when thinking of women in the environmental movement of stature and fame, accomplishment and impact.

However, I will note that Ed Abbey's plea to avoid "cattle burn" would be a valuable service to one and all, esp when provided via your poetry and prose, limericks even? But, such a self-serving suggestion you likely not read again soon...and, it would translate poorly on the world stage, save downunder and subsahara...

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 19, 2010 10:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

Thanks, WT. Your efforts are greatly appreciated. You realise, of course, that none of the worthies here assembled will have a clue what we're talking about.

So no change there then...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 19, 2010 10:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

"...none of the worthies here assembled will have a clue..."

Ah--then I shall focus on the "unworthies" and take up the challenge...once I have them as confused as my other readers, I'll have a real sense of accomplishment.

Is now the time to mention Dan Healy, or God?

Oh, and I really hope somebody at the DEAD marketing department is scanning the Forum (doubtful, I know) and deciding that an early era "run" is in fact a good idea for release...would be funny to find out "they" do know we exist; why, they wouldn't have to make their sales development decisions on a matter of faith, eh? Rather, on the basis of the smallest but most dedicated cluster of whacky fans known to humankind.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 19, 2010 10:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

Dan Healy, or God? Are they not one and the same?


You are so right - the marketing dept. really are missing a trick if they're not tuning in to this place - cut through the occasional outbreak of foolishne..., ahem spirited debating on diverse topics, and you'll find the most passionate, knowledgeable and vociferous bunch of Grateful Dead true believers that you could ever hope to meet.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 19, 2010 11:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

"Dan Healy, God [Jerry...right?]...one and the same"

Ah, add in Charlie Miller and we have the holy trinity: the producer, the mixer, and the prophet...

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 20, 2010 3:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

I'm going to say it again:

Traditional religion (choose almost any example) is mostly not what it's supposed to be or was to the founders.

For example, Jesus and Christianity. But you can find much of his original "tradition" if you try.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 20, 2010 4:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

I defn agree with that...

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 20, 2010 5:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

One thing I thought was really cool, was that you could leave backpacks in a pile and get it at the end of the show it was still there untouched. I was deeply cynical when I first went to shows, my brother robbed at a concurrent Rolling Stones show, and even this little GD moment helped remove the rust of my heart a bit.

The band also gave extra at lower prices, like a bag check truck outside the show and free/workfare tickets for many special cases. And Bill Graham himself cleaned up after shows as an example.

Definitely there was money made, and lots of it, but it wasn't imperial.


This post was modified by spacedface on 2010-01-21 01:41:36

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 20, 2010 6:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Whats so damn atheistical about the dead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC6Swa2Mi9o

Jerry Garcia Band - Gommorah (9/5/89)